Curse

Daesu · Jun 05, 2011, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

If you really want to get into HA/GvG you should be naive enough to stay in your PvE guild. You'll make friends in the other guild as well. And hey, maybe if you grow tired of the PvP and go back to PvE, you'll be on someone's friendlist and you'll get pm's to join them to roll some noobs in HA... Me probably being one of those noobs, but anyhow..

If you don't want to put the effort in, you shouldn't get the reward. But nowadays, everyone is QQ'ing it's too hard to get them and want them handed... You give them a finger and they want your arm (actually, dunno if that's an expression in english, but it's one in my language, so)..

I am just giving my perspective from a PvEer point of view. I used to GvG often with my old guild but everyone's gone from that guild.

I wanted to see how current HA is, and if the experience is good, I would visit there more often and perhaps get to know more regulars when I do that. Unfortunately, the only way to do that seems to be to leave my current guild (which has a lot of cool people in it by the way), to join a HA guild. It is too big a step for most people to be really honest.

Reverend Dr · Jun 05, 2011, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That may work for a select few but definitely cant be the solution for everyone. They have friends in their current guild. They wont know if the pvp guild would work for them and they may still want to PvE with their guildies from time to time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Simply put, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I played since game released. I had 3 fame until I started playing with my guild. Join a guild.

Are you complaining that the PuGs forming are not representative of the people playing the game? How are PvE people supposed to know this? I dunno how about looking around. That lone character looking for a group for thunderhead keep, not hard mode, not bonus, just the mission. The empirical evidence is already there.

PvE players in this game are spoiled. It isn't about finishing content, it is about how efficiently content can be finished. PvP is about being as competitive as you can be, just so you can finish content (win).

Bright Star Shine · Jun 05, 2011, 12:16 AM // 00:16

You do realize that I am about as PvE as it gets? I usually don't get into PvP discussions because they are so far from my bed, but this one was just too stupid..
The only PvP I do is occasionally get some guildies together and run some gimmicky build cause the only thing we're pro at rolling is AI, not other people.. Running anything more complex than Invoke spike has proven disastrous..

To give you a PvE analogy, your entire point is like saying "hey, I'm in [KISS] but I only know how to DwG in DoA. I don't want to leave my super duper cool guild full of pro members to go to a DoASC guild, but I want to learn it. I think I'll QQ some and hope that Anet forces them to take me along in their runs. That will make everyone happy! And especially me!"
See the flaw? I sure as hell do...

*lemming* · Jun 05, 2011, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Really, though, it sounds like you want to get into HA on your own terms. If you can make connections without leaving your guild, by all means, do it. The guild tag is just a convenience, after all - the current top GvG guild in the world has its members distributed throughout four different guilds. However, having other priorities and commitments in a team format is not something particularly attractive to anyone interested in recruiting you. After all, as a new player, anyone playing with you is making an investment of time. It's up to you to justify it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Not all newbies are people who are unwilling to learn and assuming that ALL newbies are like that is probably an exaggeration. All I have to do to prove you wrong, is to find just ONE newbie that is willing to learn right?

However, newbies don't wear hats that they says who is willing to learn and who is not. When looking for high rank players to party with, they would all say that they are willing to learn. It is up to you if you want to give them a chance.

Well, he did say in that post that he ran a training guild or program for a reasonable period, after which he wrote that post.

This is a recurring pattern whenever PvP training is offered. In Xen of Onslaught's GvG training in 2006, most players weren't interested in doing anything to genuinely improve, beyond the bare minimums, which I presume was the reason only a couple of the 50 members or so at the time proceeded to have future success in GvG. In kiSu, Billiard's GvG training project after XoO, the same thing happened.

As harsh as it might sound, making people help themselves might just be a good way to weed out everyone who won't benefit from help being proffered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

You give them a finger and they want your arm (actually, dunno if that's an expression in english, but it's one in my language, so)..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel%27s_nose

Cookie of Funk · Jun 05, 2011, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Newcomers are just lazy and unmotivated. I went into HA one afternoon with 0 fame and no knowledge of how to pvp. I pm'd a few people I saw with r10-12 and introduced myself, asking how I should go about learning to HA. it's been two weeks since I did that and now I play in r12+ teams with 120 fame to my name.

The problem isn't high-rankers dont want to help, it's that newcomers aren't willing to put in the extra effort to learn.

Essence Snow · Jun 05, 2011, 06:34 AM // 06:34

@ Lemming ...I tried to contact ppl about learning pvp...I did not contact those on here who over the course of time...I realized I just clash with them, so there was no point. After about 2 months I finally got into a group via ig for ha and gvg. What I found was it wasn't really that hard to play...it was more of a pain to set-up and get past the initial learning curve. For me the time issue was unbearable.

The main problem with PvP is lack of players........The barriers to entry have become the crutch of this problem. There have been no solutions put forth to remove this crutch. All I constantly hear is deal with the crutch. This is piss poor on any account.

I really do wonder if the pvp crowd wants the population problem improved or fixed. It seems like most live in a nostalgic sense of denial where they want it to be like it was at the start but want to ignore what it has become.

Oh well...I'll stop trying to figure out how pvp might be helped...it's not my problem. I'll simply sit back and smile as the format slowly fades. Que sera, sera.

Daesu · Jun 05, 2011, 07:28 AM // 07:28

In the end, it is just a suggestion you dont have like it. Just like new comers don't have to like it because this is how current HA runs.

Like what Essence said, the barriers to entry have become the crutch of this problem. Sure we can leave things exactly as they are and do nothing about it, or try something new.

If most of you are already happy with the current state of HA, then sure leaving things as they are is certainly an option. It is not my responsibility on how this game is to be designed, I can only offer suggestions from a new comer's point of view.

I have said all I wanted to say and I have nothing more to add. Feel free to close this thread.

Brian the Gladiator · Jun 05, 2011, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

The main problem with PvP is lack of players........The barriers to entry have become the crutch of this problem. There have been no solutions put forth to remove this crutch. All I constantly hear is deal with the crutch. This is piss poor on any account.

So this is not the most eloquent comment I have ever written but just bear with me.

Listen.... you concede that the main problem with PvP is lack of players. So we will start with that premise since both parties have found common ground that we can formulate arguments from. You then proceed that forcing the current HA players to do things that they don't want to do will not drive them away from the format and will, in turn, increase the number of players in that format. Your fatal conceit is that you think there is this massive pool of PvE players that are interested in HA if they could only get into a group. This is just not true. The problem in PvP is that it has abandoned all forms of micro-tactical play on virtually all non-monk characters, thus making that position independent of player skill, leaving monks with the only skillful role in the format. GvG isn't dying because there isn't a big enough influx of new players. GvG is dying because newer teams without ultra-pro backlines can not win matches. The lack of new players is the symptom of this problem. Believe it or not, there used to be a time when people would say things like, "that guy is such a good warrior." or, "If we had that mesmer on our team, we would win more matches.". Does anybody say that anymore about anything except monk? Think about it. "If only we had that Av of Balth dervish, we would win more". "It's too bad we don't have that Sig of Suffering necromancer on our team. He is so pro". Nobody says that because anybody and everybody who is not a monk is almost to the point of pure irrelevance. Is there a difference between top 100 dervishes and rank 1000 dervishes? yes... but only in so much as they possibly know how to react to splits a bit faster or they body black during flag pushes a bit better. Wooohooo! That's a game changer!!! That is why HA died and GvG is on it's way to death. HA had this problem WAY before GvG developed it so it makes sense HA died first. I have already commented on other threads what I believe the solution is so I'm going to just stop talking now.

This isn't rocket science people. It's guild wars. Just use your common sense. GvG used to be popular and now it isn't. In my opinion, HA always supported unhealthy game types and skilless strategies. GvG was HA's crutch. What happens when GvG starts to die from the same symptoms HA had? HA players go to GvG and GvG players quit the game. Ultimately, what changed? GvG used to be fun and now it is less fun. It's not balance. It's because we lost an entire play style that made this game different from other MMOs.

Do you want to fix HA? Then it starts with reworking skills away from the "paragon mentality" and more towards the "bull's strike mentality".

*lemming* · Jun 05, 2011, 09:12 AM // 09:12

I'm sure I'll be called elitist or exclusionary for this post. Step into my shoes for a moment, however - I've been in your shoes before; the converse is not true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

@ Lemming ...I tried to contact ppl about learning pvp...I did not contact those on here who over the course of time...I realized I just clash with them, so there was no point. After about 2 months I finally got into a group via ig for ha and gvg. What I found was it wasn't really that hard to play...it was more of a pain to set-up and get past the initial learning curve. For me the time issue was unbearable.

Honestly, for what purpose are you interested in trying HA? Again, it seems like you're only willing to do everything on your own terms. If you can improve without outside assistance, by all means, go for it. At this point, however, I'm reasonably sure that the attitude you're displaying is impairing any efforts you've made towards getting a foot in the door.

Incidentally, you may want to read this; I believe you may see a bit of yourself in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

In the end, it is just a suggestion you dont have like it. Just like new comers don't have to like it because this is how current HA runs.

Like what Essence said, the barriers to entry have become the crutch of this problem. Sure we can leave things exactly as they are and do nothing about it, or try something new.

If most of you are already happy with the current state of HA, then sure leaving things as they are is certainly an option. It is not my responsibility on how this game is to be designed, I can only offer suggestions from a new comer's point of view.

I have said all I wanted to say and I have nothing more to add. Feel free to close this thread.

Don't play the "I am the poor victim" role. You've been explaining your experiences, and we've been explaining the reasons behind those experiences. You don't have to take our word as any kind of gospel, but if you refuse to acknowledge it at all, then there's not much of a discussion to be had.

Essence Snow · Jun 05, 2011, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I'm sure I'll be called elitist or exclusionary for this post. Step into my shoes for a moment, however - I've been in your shoes before; the converse is not true.

Honestly, for what purpose are you interested in trying HA? Again, it seems like you're only willing to do everything on your own terms. If you can improve without outside assistance, by all means, go for it. At this point, however, I'm reasonably sure that the attitude you're displaying is impairing any efforts you've made towards getting a foot in the door.

Incidentally, you may want to read this; I believe you may see a bit of yourself in it.

Basically...I have done everything in pve 11k+ hours worth...I am a gl of a large 3yr old PvE guild that is basically running on social interactions as most of us have done everything in pve. Some of my guildies have hinted interest in pvp...so ofc I looked into it...that is/was my interest.

Believe me if I could have avoided the 2 months of searching and the countless hours setting teams and builds up for ha and gvg...I would have. If I had those choice I definately would NOT have made that time part of my terms. Spending more time setting up rather than actually playing does not really suit me.

Quoting the dunning kruger effect is a very popular forum debating "tactic". I had hoped for a more refreshing ad hominem. I do not claim to be an expert on PvP...nvr said I was. I do not claim to know the perfect solution to fix pvp...nvr said I did. What I do know is the perspective of a pve player attempting to break into pvp.

I read Brians post and I will agree with him that there are fundamental skill/profession issues (which lessen the need for "micro-tactical" play) in the various formats. I however disagree that fixing those issue will bring a signifcant number of ppl to pvp. It is of my "opinion" that that will mainly fix pvp play for the current pvp population and not so much for prospective players as new players are not overly concerned with such issues.

lursey · Jun 05, 2011, 03:08 PM // 15:08

I think a very simple fix for HA is

to have fixed bar for each profession, each week or month etc.

so that people do not really have to spend 10 hours making the build, and lose in 1 min, without knowing whats went wrong.....and quit, and blame on other players skill, but actually the build is inferior than other teams.

players will simply just used the fixed bar, and do not really have to care about the skills with all sort of opinions that really don't help anything in the team...as most of the time in a group usually is the leader who gives the build, and pug and players will mainly copy it and run it...

groups can be formed easier, as the builds are more expected.

True that it will decrease complexity, but complexity and barrier to entry should also be balanced...either is too extreme, will just be meaningless as a game for players to stay playing.

Bright Star Shine · Jun 05, 2011, 03:20 PM // 15:20

So HA would be 8man Codex? That's even more stupid than the thing the OP suggested. If you can't make synergy within builds and you can't figure out how your skills work, i.e. READ your skills, don't bother playing PvP...

lursey · Jun 05, 2011, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

So HA would be 8man Codex? That's even more stupid than the thing the OP suggested. If you can't make synergy within builds and you can't figure out how your skills work, i.e. READ your skills, don't bother playing PvP...

not even codex, codex you still can choose upon different skills from profession, but what I'm suggesting is a fixed bar, you join, already have the whole skill being given....somewhat like costume brawl.

please note that the complexity in codex and ha is totally different story...

in codex you don't have to run relics, capture, hold, with 8 players....

you can make a game very complex like you have to spend 100 hours too kill a dragon, but not really many players have that 100 hours to spend...they will just leave...and it is the case in HA.

vitorvdp_68 · Jun 05, 2011, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

I think a very simple fix for HA is

to have fixed bar for each profession, each week or month etc.

Oh, I get what you're trying to accomplish...
Oh wait, I don't. Is it ruining the format? I think that's a good guess.

lursey · Jun 05, 2011, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitorvdp_68

Oh, I get what you're trying to accomplish...
Oh wait, I don't. Is it ruining the format? I think that's a good guess.

maybe the winner of HOH can obtain a token to have an option to setup the bars or remain with the old bars for the whole guildwars community.

who wins, who is the boss, it is more interactive, can be who wins the most in the same day, who has the most token in the week etc to fix the bar.

players who wishes to change the bars, must win the creator of the skill bars.

if it is good build, it will stay longer than other, and anet developer don't really have to spend time making the fix bar themselves.

players can still practice skills, and maps, and have more focus knowledge of builds.

and the fun is even crap builds can be run in HA, as all other players using the same build

Bright Star Shine · Jun 05, 2011, 03:47 PM // 15:47

You guys keep saying "it's unfair we have to spend time to learn the format, so let's change to format". How is it unfair? The pro's had to learn it, everyone prior to you had to learn it, just cause you're either too lazy or to dumb to learn it shouldn't be a reason to change it.

lursey · Jun 05, 2011, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

You guys keep saying "it's unfair we have to spend time to learn the format, so let's change to format". How is it unfair? The pro's had to learn it, everyone prior to you had to learn it, just cause you're either too lazy or to dumb to learn it shouldn't be a reason to change it.

not about pro or noob, I am not blaming them... it is the system do not sustain players... so it needs to be fixed...

vitorvdp_68 · Jun 05, 2011, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Explain how exactly does the system not sustain players?

lursey · Jun 05, 2011, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitorvdp_68

Explain how exactly does the system not sustain players?

map skipping, no opposing opponent, hoh more of 1vs1 than 1v1v1, maps are not fully utilized.

vitorvdp_68 · Jun 05, 2011, 04:01 PM // 16:01

I like how your "solution" doesn't address any of those points, regardless of their validity.
Decreasing the reward for experienced people... where is the logic in that?